Note, this transcript was generated by AI and has not been edited.

Mary

If there is one thing that business owners need to be thinking about 🐽when it comes to doing a new𝓰 website, whatever🦹 you do, never ever work with an agency that tells you they can't build a website that yo🐻u can update on your own. This is a colossa﷽l, major, crazy red flag that's designed to keep you from being independent. So what you 🔯have to do is make s🌺ure you find a guide who can help you stand on your own feet so you can actually own your website and its success.

Wow.

Great advice.

I can't wait to talk about it.

Welcome back to Endless Customers. My ♈name's Alex Winter and today I'm joined by Mary Brown who's a lead web strategist here at IMPACT Mary.

What's up?

Hey Alex, glad to be here.

Glad to have you. We always love having you on the show. I can't wait to talk about website stuff today. We got a lot to talk about. We got a lot of ground to cover. The big question, let's start high level. The big question everyone has been asking me or what I've been hearing is,

do I really need a website in 2024? With AI and with social media, is a website really that important? We hear from business leaders all the time that they come to you about website struggles and website challenges, and whether they should or they shouldn't. What's your take on all this?

What do you think about all this?

So, spoiler, I'm gonna get to it, is that there are really two situations in which our team will say you absolutely need a website right now, and I'm gonna get to that, but first, I will tell you, I 🧸hear a variety of things fromౠ people a ton of different reasons why business leaders feel they need a new website And I'll give you some of those so we often hear our site feels𝓡 really stale

We feel like we ♊need a design update or we hear you know We just hired a new CMO ܫand the new mark꧂eting leader comes in and they think hey, we need a new website We need a fresh start We hear thin🃏gs like oh, w🥀e just launched a new product line. So o🌺bviously, we need a new website to support that. And maybe most often, Alex, tha𒁃t we hear is our leads are down. So the lead pipeline shrinks, people freak out, they're v🌄ery stressed🌊, they think, okay, n🐈ew website is going to help jumpstart that, ri🌜ght?

Another o♑ne we 💧hear all the time is we're unable to update the site on our own.🤡 So if you do not have editing access to the🧸 site, you've got to use an agency or a freelancer to update the site. We hear tha🧸t all the time. This one kills me. Every business s🐻hould be able to update their website. We're going to talk about that more too, but you must hav꧅e to have to be able to do that. And finallღy, another signifi𓃲cant challenge, but one that we probably hear t💯he least, is that our website doesn't meet tech standards right now. We need to update it to meet t💮hose tech📖 standards.

So I'm talking about site speed, responsiveness, page scripts, things like that. People don't always know the details of why, but they do think💃, okay, our site's painfully slow, and it's a tech proble🔯m, so tha🅘t's why they come to us. But it really runs the gamut. There are all kinds of different reasons.

Yeah, those are some really good reasons, and I've heard a lot of those before, especially the new agency coming in, or a new CMO coming into the mix and going like, ìWeíre going to 🌱redesign everythiꦺng. Weíre ♌going to redo everything.î ꦫAnd sometimes that is whatís needed, but a lot of times thatís not usually the case an♏d it ends up causing a lot more time an🔯d money being spent for really no actual gains when i🃏t comes to like your bottom line.

So with that, for CEOs, for business leaders that maybe are in this sort of st🎀icky situation or having some of these problems, what advice do you give them? Or what's usually🧜 the first entry point🎃 of conversation as you start to talk with them ab🔯out🌊 these issues?

So really it's trying to understand whether ꦆthey actually have really impressin♊g reasons why they need a new webs𝄹ite, or if these are just symp♛toms. So oftentimes we do find that people are feeling those🅺 pains and they're just symptoms rath💛er than the actual root cause of what the issue is. So when we have these conversations, it's trying to get to that root c🐈ause and underꦐstand how bad that root cause really is and if it needs a new website. Because a lot of times they don't, Alex.

A lot of the things that I mentioned before♔, they don't need a new website. And there are things that you can do. There's conversion rate optimization. Trying ღto improve the existing website can really go a long way. You know, a𝓀 lot of CEOs aren't opening up Pa💮geSpeed Insights and r෴eviewing their site scores to 🔯see if core web vitals are an issue, and they shouldn't be. They're running a business, ꧟so꧟ that's not their expertise.

They won't know the depth of that problem. And with leads, too. Leads are often just a symptom, and can a website help solve for that? Yeah, but it's just one piece of that. So unless they're addressing the underlying marketing strategy, a new website is unlikely to solve the whole problem in and of itself.

No, that makes sense.

Yeah, and we c🐬an build a ꦆnew site that will convert better, but if people aren't writing the content that's gonna bring the right traffic, they won't have anyone to convert. Or if they do get traffic, and we do𒉰 get conversions, but the sales team isn't🎐 on top of their game, you're still not going to get that revenue. So that's why the website is just one piece of that whole engine, right💫?

So we really need๊ to understand what the root problems are so we can determine if the new website's going to be the thing that they need.

I love what you're saying. Yeah, and I think for bus🍒iness leaders out there, the differentiator is like thinki♔ng about it ✤as the symptoms versus the causes, right? It's like you really need to iden🍌tify these symptoms. And business leaders aren't web designers. They're not developers. They're not web experts. So it's not their specialty, but they still need

to ꦚunderstand some of these symptoms that are happening. So can we talk a little bit about some of the, you mentioned a few, bu🃏t some of these common symptoms that you see on a regular basis and that you and your team are fixing on a daily basis.

Yeah, so definitely slow, slow websites. We've had people 🌺come ♓to us where, you know, it takes seconds and seconds and seconds to load. And I know that that might not feel like a re💎ally big deal. But we know that, you know, if it takes longer⛎ than three seconds for a site to load on m🔜obile, they might lose 53% of their visitors. That's huge. That's really huge. That's a symptom of a major problem, right? Or🤪 the not being able to edit the site🐟 is that is a symptom of also just a major problem. Like they're feeling the pain of t𒐪hat and that is a real problem that they have. So those along with onesꦆ that I already mentioned are probably the co🦄re ones that we see and hear most often and the pain we hear most often about,

that then we can dig deeper into and learn how to fix what they need.

Yeah, yeah, those are really great points. And it sounds to me, too, like the decision becomes difficult for business leaders to go, do I need a new website right now? Or are there some of these symptoms that 🐬we can fix and worry about a redesign later? Or maybe it's not really a redesign

and we just need to focus on these symptoms. Is that right that I say it that way?

Yeah, so you said it well, and really, I mentioned thiౠs before, there are reaౠlly two situations in which we would say you absolutely need to update your site right now. So one is not being able to update it on𒁃 your own, and I'm gonna keep saying this because of how important that is. So an outdated website is a liability

that can make you look bad, right? That's just very basic. But if you are being held hostage by your site and you can't update c🧸offee, you can൲'t create landing pages, you can't change CTAs, you need a new web𝐆site ASAP. Tha🃏t would be♍ one of those times that I would say right now you need a new website.💮 You should never be beholden to someone else to be able to m🉐ake these changes. And then the other reason that we ✨would say you need a new website now would be if you're not meeting current tech standards.

So if you are ✱not meeting the standards that are established by search engines, then you can't rank well. And then you definitely need a new website. So if you can't💎 deliver on those, in either of those two ways, then jus💜t making updates or mꦑaking optimizations isn't gonna help you save it. Like your index pages can just 🔥kee꧙p slipping in rankings, your traffic can go down, s💙o these are m🤡ajor problems where we would s🌱ay right now, you need a new site.

Yeah, yeah, no, it makes sense, and when we think about They Ask, You Answer, and what Marcus teaches all the time, control is important on your website because it's a living, breathing thing. It's not a set it and forget it. And I think ꦅa lot of business people tend to 💧do that. They build the websi🦂te, it's done, they pop champagne,

they're all excited, a🦋nd then they don't touch it. And that is just almost like a portfolio page instead of a living, breathing th🌳ing that you can update and that 🧜you can change and that you should be shifting to meet your potential customers where they are. So for the control piece, h💎ow do you give that power🐼 back? Or what should business owners be thinking about in order to have that control

as they start their website journey in 2024?

Yeah, so you need to have something that a pe♏rson on the ma🍌rketing team can work with. You need to be on a platform that someone, a marketer, can work with. You do not need to have a developer on staff. I'm saying this in gigantic, capital, bolded, 🍬red letters. You don't need a developer. You shouldn't need a developer,

your content manager should be able to update 🧸your website. That's really cool.

No, I wasn't expecting you to say that. So you don't necessarily need to hav♈e a developer on staff, is what you're saying, in that if it's▨ built correctꦓly, you should have the control.

Yeah, exactly. And that's not a hard thing to find or do, Alex. It's about having, if you're working with a company to build a new ꦑsite It's about finding one who would rathꦛer empower ♍you in your team to truly own it or finding one that would rather Handcuff you to them so💛 that they just have recurring revenue for the next 10 years Which is what a 🌞lot of agencies൩ do and I hate to say that But it does happen So finding one that wants to coach and♈ train and teach

Yꦉou had🎉 a really own things and finding one that can build on a platform where you can own it so you can learn things like how to optimize it on your own and really understand the performance of it is crucial for having that control.

Yeah, that's huge. I never really heard it put that way but I love what you're saying because I figured you'd at least need to have like a web specialist or somebody on your team but it sounds like if it's built correctly and you worked with the right team, they can put the control back in your hands

and 🐈you can really update you🌄r site when you need to, change things when you need to, and you don't need to call your agency or send an email and submit a ticket and wait a week and see what happens and go through the stereotypical agency route.

Yeah, and I will say,

so you mentioned a web specialist on staff. I will say that while you d▨on't need to hire someone whose resume says, you know, web strategist because I worꦛk with a lot of content managers who I then train to l🌱earn how to use tools like Lucky Orange and they learn hౠow💝 to review data and perform experience that does take some education, right? So there's there is a difference between ow🐼ning the ability to optimize your site and learning how to do it. So there are📖 two thin♍gs that go hand in hand there.

There are a ton of ways that companies can learn how to really optimize and learn about conversion rate optimization, which is great. You don't have to have, you don't have to come in with that background. It can be taught and learned. So that's an important piece of 💙the journey as well.

Yeah, it definitely is. And it's one of those thi﷽ngs too that even as a business leader or as a ꦦCEO, you do want to𝕴 learn these things. And it may seem like you don't need to, but it directly affects sales. It directly a👍ffe🅺cts the traffic and leads that are coming into your business. So as 🌳aඣn owner, that's something that I hope you're

concerned about and that you're focused on. So this is j🌸ust another part of that piece, right? It's 𓂃just another part of finding those traffiꦛc leads and sales anꦫd✤ finding more of your best customers.

Yeah, and it's crazy, Alex, because some people will say💎, you know, we just spent a ton of money building a new website, and then they don't want t൲o fin▨d out if it's working for them or not, right? It's part of that set it and forget it thing that we were talking about before, but if you just spend, 𓆏say🔯 somebody spends $40,000 on a new websꦆite, but they don't know how t💮o look at data,

they don't know how💜 to see if the site is working for them and if it's not working or if they even have a feeli🔯ng it's not working, they don'tꦑ know how to figure out how to make it work. You just wasted $40,000. Right? That's, it's mind boggling to me. And that is ✃what CE🍰Os should be caring about, right?

Is all of this money I invested, am I getting a return on that or not?

ROI is huge. And I've heard all too often, and we've talked about this offline too, where somebody will spend $40,000, $50,000 on a new website redesign, they launch it, and they're not🌺 getting the traffic leads and sales, and then they talk to another agency, and then the next agency is like,

oh, you need to redesign your whole website again and spend another $40,000, $50,000. So 🐓that happens a lot, and that's a recur🃏ring thing where it puts a bad taste in people's mouths. And I don't blame CEOs and other p🦹eople for be♔ing like, this sucks, I hate dealing with this, I just want it to work. So for people that are struggling like that,

what resources do they have? How can they start to educate? How can you point them in a good direction where they can start to learn a little bit more and get themselves set up for success?

Yeah, so one⭕ oꩵf those things that you need to understand, and I've been saying is, what metrics should I 🐠be looking at to understand whether a website is ♏performiꦰng well or not, right? Because it's not just about number of leads. There are so many other things that you have to look at on a website. You have to know if peopl🐼e are engaging with yo꧑ur content.

You hav🦩e to know if you're getting the right traffic to your website. Just because you're getting traffic doesn't mean there are people𝓰 who will ever convert for you. So you have to know what kind of traffic. And you have to unders﷽tand what good c💯onversion rates look like and all of those things. So getting better educate꧙d about that is critical

so that you know those things. I always send people first to IMPACT+. You know, we've got a good resource on that. You can learn about the tools that you should be using for that tꦐype of thing. We have courses about how to use things like Looking Orange. So that's a good place to start, just ♛to understand what the heck

should I even be looking at? On my website, we ta🃏lk about those different metrics to be looking at. So just, if you're trying t🎃o wrap yourꩵ head around that fro🤪m a start, it's definitely a good place ౠto be looking.

Yeah, that's a great recommendation. I also have a question, too, around the longevity of a site. Because we were just talking about how, oh, you just redesigned your site🍨, but it's wrong, so redesign it again and redesign it again. And is there a redesign every couple years? Is that standard?

Or what do you recommend for, I guess, long-term success with your website? So you're making a big investment, you talked about ROI, how do you get that ROI, and howღ do you keep your site operating optimally for the long-term?

Yeah, so I wouldn't put ꦛa c💦ertain number of years on it. I know people would probably like to say, oh, every three years, every five 🐻years, whatever. I wouldn't do that at all. If you can edit your site, yoꦐu are winning because UX and best practices can chan꧋ge and evolve. 🐻So being💯 able to change things and evolve with it is crucial. And also your business can change. So maybe you develop new products or services and you need to keep your messaging up to date. So being able toಞ change that messaging, have your messaging evolve

as you go along will be huge. Because that is the backbone of your website is the ꦺcontent of it. So I know some people ge🍃t bored with design sometimes and they get it, but that's not the thing that's going to make 🌌people convert. It's your messaging, it's your copy, right? And the story you're telling. So if𝔉 you can edit and change that story and keep it compelling for people, that's really huge. If you stay on top of Core Vitals and keep your site's performance as high as ꩵpossible, that is going to serve you well.

So if 🔯people bounce from your site because iꦛt's too slow, it doesn't✨ even matter what kind of copy you have. They're never gonna see it. So that's another huge piece of this. But a thing that is never going to change, that never changes over time, is making sure that your website builds trust. So if you have a learning center,

if you include pricing information on your site, if you have testimonials, and if you are answering your buyers most pressing🌼 questions throughout their journey, then you're going to be in really g𓃲ood shape over years because those are the things that build trust. That's the currency of business. That's what makes people buy.

So as long as you're doing all of those things, then your site will have the kind of longevity you're looking for where you're not needing to spend, again, tens of thousands of dollars every three years.

Yeah, no, that's really great advice. And the design piece, it is important, but design is subjective. And the flashy stuff, as cool as it is, and it plays into the overall perception, content is king. And I think what you said is so valid that the content really needs to ✨be u✃p front and how you build trust and how you stay open and honest and how you give peo🍸💞ple these resources

so that they can make an informed buyin😼g decision. That's really what it's all about. And we're seeing that shift too. Austin and I were talking about this earlier in studio th🐭at it's happening across the🐼 board. It's not just websites. Even with video🤡, people are caring less and less about these flashy, high-quality videos and they care more🌠 about 🍸what people are saying and the quality of the content and if it's meaningful or not. The othe💜r stuff is secondary, it really is. So I think that's a

huge point for people🧜 and listeners out there to take into account as they go on their website design 🎃journey. So one more question for you. When we🍰're talki꧂ng about the flashy piece versus the content piece, do you have like, I know you work with a lot o🍸f clients and you work with a lot of industries and companies. Do you have an example of maybe somebody that was very focused on the flashy design side of 🦩things and then you kind of brought them into the like,

hey, let's focus꧑ more on🍒 building trust and the content and giving the control back ෴to you and to your team. Can you maybe share a story with us like that?

Yes, it does happen.

Is this 𒁃like every engagement that you have b🅺asically?

No, no, no♏, it's not all of them, but we call it shiny object syndrome, where🌠 people will see sh✤iny and they'll say, oh, I want that. Oh, I need that. Oh, I want 𝔍that. Totally. Aꩵnd often what happens with websites when it comes to shinies and it comes with flashy stuff is it can be ꩵrea💛lly bad for your website performance. Really, really bad. Because that's the kind of stuff that can slow your site down. And as I m🥂entioned, over three seconds on mobile, 53% of your traffic. Not worth it.

That's huge.

Literally half your traffic is gone because you ꦅwanna have some cool flas🌃hy animation.

Yeah, not worth it, never worth it. So I'm a geek, you know this, I'm a geek. So for me it always comes back to those𝔍 type ℱof numbers and it comes back to making sure that people have their actual needs clearly defined. What is the goal that we're talking about? So I always try to bring people back, center them back to the goals.

What are we trying to do? Try to make as many data-driv🦂en decisions as possible. Is this going to help us convert people or not? Or is it just going to entertain you because it's your webꦜsite and you want to hౠave fun with it? Making sure we're trꦗacking these type of measurable things. So, you know, we will tell someone, here's how your site is performing now, right?

Not doing it, not doing what you need it to do, not being your best salesperson, which is what your website should always be. If it's not speaking to that goal in some way, then we're not doing it. It's not worth, honestly, you know what a lot of that flash also does? It adds budget.

It adds budget because it costs more development and development can be expensive. So it's not worth the extra money either if it's not going to directly impact conversion from a data perspective.

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. You're right, development time is money. So🗹 if it takes more time to create these shiny object things, it's gonna ulﷺtimately cost you more money to develop these things. And really, it's not gonna a🏅ffect your bottom l🌜ine. It sounds like it's gonna hurt your bottom line. So you're spending money up front

and you're losing money on the tail end because people aren't engaging correctly with your site. And you said something that really stuck out to me. We talk about this a lot here at IMPACT, making data-driven de🐟cisions. Can you talk a little bit more about what that actually means, and especially when we're talki🃏ng about having control

and being able to update your site like we were talking about earlier, how that plays into that.

Yeah, so every websit෴e should start with strategy. It has to start with strategy, and it has to be based in🅷 those types of decisions of let's look at the current data of how people are using the site, let's look at the behavior we want to drive, let's look at the buyer's journey that we need to be sending people on,

and let's make sure that our website iꦉs rooted in that strategy so that that buyer's journey, the ideal journey comes to fruition. And we'r🌃e doing everything we can to support that jo👍urney. And t✱hen reviewing that data of whether it's working or not and making any optimizations to help move people in the direction we need them to. So that's the nice thing about websites

i𝔍s that you don't have to just cross your fin🌊gers and hope and say, gee, I really hope this goes well. You can actually look at numbers. As long as you are educated about what numbers you ne🌞ed to be looking at and how to manipulate them. But you can make really educated decisions based on actual user behavior. So if you're not doing that,

then you're not doing it the right way. So that's why I always ꦆad🐭vise starting with that strategy, sticking with that strategy, and then always bringing data into it to support everything we're trying to do.

Totally, I couldn't agree more. Do you have use cases or stories you could share where a business owner or a company really was so focused on the vanity metrics of✱ things and the design where they were just like, yeah, this is exactly what we wanted and we think it's working, we're making these assuꦉmptions that it seems to be okay.

And in reality, they're missing so much opportu💃nity that could have been shifted if they were focusing on the data and they were focusing on ex🧔actly what you're talking about.

Yeah, and you know what's funny? It's not even just they're not focꦜused on the𒈔 data. It can be that they're not focus🌱ed on the right data. Oh, okay. So I can't tell you how many people that we have who just look at traffic and they just say, we just wanna increase traffic. So they👍 write a ton of content that is not focused

on answering their actual buyers questions. And s𝔍o they think, hey, we just got a♏ bunch of traffic, but it might b﷽e related to something in pop culture that's very interesting to people at the moment. And they barely tie it to their actual business. So they get a ton of trꦅaffi𒀰c because that's what people are interested in at the moment, but it has nothing to do with the actual b𒊎uyer's journey. It has noth🌊ing to do with building trust with their customers. And then when they're not converting

and they're not getting the leads and they're saying, but we have so much traffic, it's becaus🌠e you have the wrong traffic. That happens all the time that people h🐻ave the wrong traffic, traffic that will never ac🌞tually convert for them because they're writing the wro🌟ng type of thing. And that's one of those times when they might come toꦬ us and say, like, gosh, what's wrong? We have no idea what's wrong. And then once you dig in and you see what you're getting for it, that's wꦫhen you learn.

Yeah, no, that's a huge point. And I think everyone looks at traffic. It doesn't mat♉ter if it's website, if it's social media, everyon🦄e's looking at those numbers and how man🔯y views it gets and if it goꦬes viral, right? But that♓'s actually not the best way to think about it because ultimately you're looking for conversions. So if you get a million views on something or a million hits on a page o꧒ᩚᩚᩚᩚᩚᩚ⁤⁤⁤⁤ᩚ⁤⁤⁤⁤ᩚ⁤⁤⁤⁤ᩚ𒀱ᩚᩚᩚn your site and you only get one conver🅘sion, that's not really, it's not really working so well. Whereas like if yo🌠u only get 500 people t🍸hat view it but maybe a hundred of those 500 convert, that's

Alex